Originally by: Eldo Davip

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 12:25:29

A bit sidetrack but I notice in one screen it says "warp to 0m" for the gang member. Does that mean we can expect warp to 0km for everything in EVE?

Does that also mean we have a chance of accidently bumping everyone away during combat?

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That only means that they put in that option to make testing easier. Nothing is sure until Kali hits TQ.

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Originally by: Eldo Davip

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Originally by: MOOstradamus

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/me is surprised nobody has yet asked for the return of trained and possibly now useless/wasted SP's ..

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Oh shush you...we've already got enough whining.

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 07/11/2006 13:04:10

Originally by: TomB

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It won't be available in Kali but it's planned for next upcoming release. The good thing though is that you have collapsing groups inside the gang UI and members take less space now.

So the gang UI itself takes less space. The addon is the gang broadcast window how ever which you can resize as you want to see as many broadcasts you want to at given moment.

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Awesome beans! \o/

PS: I knew 13 base charisma would make me awesome one day!

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Originally by: TomB

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Originally by: Darpz

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sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason

It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.

Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now

Person 1: X for gang
FC: would a squadcommander invite him.
SC1: sorry i'm full
SC2: Sorry I'm full also
SC4: Also Full
SC5: yup same
FC: SC3?
SCI: he must be afk
FC: ok will someone make a new squad?
....
FC: so no else can make a squad?
....
Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow

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FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad...
WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing!
FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it
WC2: I mean that's so cool
Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite

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Originally by: NightmareX

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TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm?

I hope you can answer on this

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Originally by: Pick Me

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Originally by: EvilNate

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zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool.

I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all.

Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too.

Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years?

Nate

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Absolutely NOT. This is why most other MMORPG go straight to hell.

In DAOC for example, a guy has 3 high level characters in a 'gang' with a new one he just created. So they go into a very hard place and start to fight with some very interesting macros. If a monster hit the newbee, he is instantly killed.

One macro is taking the group to a monster if there is'nt one in front of them.
One macro is reviving the newbee char each time he is killed.
Other macro make them all attack.

So each time a monster died, it's shared between the 'gang' members and thus the newbee go up in level.

The guy let the macros run when he sleep or at work and each 3 weeks, he has a nice new medium-high level character to sell for RL money (about 100$ depending on competiton).

In Eve, it's impossible to do that because of how the skills system work. But thoses that still sell character would be too happy to raise their standing that way, AND, we should'nt have people in large gang like Bob be able to get anything faster than everyone else just because they are able to form bigger gang. They already have the 'large numbers' bonus with all that come with it.

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Originally by: flyinhedgehog

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(rant continued)
Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) IÆm sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh.

In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itÆs properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/nerfage. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing.

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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Originally by: Serapis Aote

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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Originally by: Serapis Aote

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you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.

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He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

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which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.

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Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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Originally by: Oveur

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A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).

If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).

There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.

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Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem

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And people would complain how much more?

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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...

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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...

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....

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Actualy in the case in example I was the fleet comander, I was refering to the person screaming 'warp to me' as an idiot. And typing a persons name in gang chat doesn't let my guys imediately rightclick target him or her either. I like seeing where my targets are because it helps me think about the problem three dimensionaly, I can figure out what they're aligned to, where best I can stage a rally point outside thier scanner arcs. Its just one of those nice little tools I've wanted.

Now afaik, the entire system as TomB has said earlier in the thread will be fully functional, without any of the skills. The only catch is that to use the leadership mods, you have to have the command skills to use them in the gang. This personaly I think is a well deserved nerf for gang bonus mods. Other than that anyone can take over the fleet commander and wing comander slots and use the gang otherwise, just no bonuses. I don't really see the complications in it.

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Originally by: DrAtomic

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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Originally by: Serapis Aote

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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Originally by: Serapis Aote

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you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.

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He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

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which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.

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Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?

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Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?

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Nope, he's not it was actually posted by one of the devs on the Kali forum....

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Originally by: SengH

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Before we get carried away... how would this affect the current war dec/ gang flagging system. If im in a fleet and another wing joins with someone at war with another corp (easily possible with 250 people) would all 250 ppl become flagged to allow others to shoot at them? or just the squad?

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Originally by: Mr Ninjaface

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ccp should relize we dont want skills for something we could do before with out skills. What next Need to train docking 4 just to dock at a amarr station. Maybe stargate operation 5. Its bad enough you put in a skill for contracts but this new gang system is silly

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Originally by: Zarch AlDain

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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Originally by: Matrix Aran

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Originally by: Serapis Aote

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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Originally by: Serapis Aote

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you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.

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He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

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which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.

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Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?

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Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?

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It's an n squared problem.

5 people in a gang means each person needs updates from 4 people.

That is 5*4 lots of updates.

10 people means 10*9

50 people means 50*49

100 people means 100*99

200 people means 200*199

So 5: 20 calculations
10: 90 calculations
50: 2450 calculations
100: 9900 calculations
200: 39800 calculations

Then consider that every time you take a hit it needs to work out who is boosting your resistance. Every time you lock a target who is boosting that, how about speed, shield hp?

Every one of those things is constantly needing to be checked all the time by all the members.

I'm sure it only checks every now and then and caches the result but even so thats 39 thousand calculations every second for each gang bonus.

So with 12 gang modules, 5(?) gang skills and 4 titans thats 21 things being checked.

So that is 835800 calculations/comparison every time this is updated. For each of those comparisons it needs to work out if you are in the same system,

And that is just for gang skills - we aren't even considering hit points display etc at this point!


Still don't see why it's a problem?

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Originally by: Zarch AlDain

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Originally by: Sir Juri

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I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN!

SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty.

edit; on page 7

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You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?

Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader.

That's it, 3 checks per person.

So a hundred man gang has 300 checks instead of 9900, a two hundred man gang has 600 instead of 31 thousand, etc...



Now for what it's worth I agree that there should be some consideration given to the role of command ships and being able to support each other better along with delegation of roles in the gang. I also think people are over reacting though and accusing someone of making things up and speaking BS (which you still haven't apologised to the person in question for) is hardly the way to make your case. Neither is shouting at me.

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Originally by: Testicular Testes

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Originally by: Spaja Saist

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Originally by: TomB

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Originally by: Jet Collins

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Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

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Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.

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I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count?

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This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages?

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Originally by: TomB

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Gang Bonuses & Server Performance
Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat.

Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders
We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.

Broadcast Role
This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali.

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